59 replies to this topic

[buglips*the*goblin]

So my nephew has taken an interest in Dungeons & Dragons, which I view as a Very Good Thing. Given the substantial enrichment I've had from D&D, RPGs, miniatures, and all ancillary and sundry items, I think this is pretty awesome.

As I have more disposable income than a 12-year-old, I'm happy to support this. Now I'm, as we know, an old-schooler. This is less because I think 2nd is the best version, and more that it's my version. It was the new product on the scene when I was entering/exiting my awkward teenage years. His version is probably going to be very different. Not much good for me to go and round him up old school books if everybody he knows is using new things.

I'm cool with this. I don't especially care what version he plays. But holy moly, trying to reasearch this is bending my brain in ways Gary Gygax's obtuse matrices never could. I mean, what to buy?

Apparently 4th has a problem: the rules now don't match the rules before, and there's piles of errata. There's 4th, 4th Essentials (whatever the heck that is), and the whole design philosophy is weird and alien to me. There's how many player's handbooks now? Wha?

So I turn to you good people, who may be wiser here than I. Leaving out the question of D&D Next, which has no release date but is certain to upset all my plans by rendering any new product obsolete in short order, is there a 4th Edition system where you can play the game for a goodly while - without devouring reams of errata corrections - with only 3 books (PHB, DMG, and a monster book)?

Or has that gone the way of myth and legend? I honestly don't know what Wizard's plan for this edition was. It seems very scattered and disorganized. All I want is to assemble some essentials (you'd think Essentials would do the job, but most of that looks more like supplements than essentials - wha?).

I was originally looking at the new red box, which has a fancy old school look, and a set of polys, but only goes to level 2. Really? Way to bring the fun! Whoo-hoo, I gained a level! We're done.

Now it has to be D&D because his first step is a tepid one and he wants to play the brand he's been exposed to - so Pathfinder is not an option. (Which is too bad, since that's the one version I've never heard complaints about).

So should I bother with 4th if Next is coming "Soon"? Try to get some 3.5 stuff on the cheap and try to convert him over to Pathfinder so he can enjoy a more organized "current edition"? Use my awesome powers of old-skoolery to trick/convert new minds to 2nd Edition? (where at least I would understand his questions in order to answer, it's cheap, and you already know how the product line turns out - but the cool kids might laugh at him and his antique books)

What do youse guys think?


ETA: subsequent to this post, I discovered Pathfinder also has a starter set. It doesn't say if there's a level limit. Anybody know how much this has in the way of legs? Because that might just solve all my issues if it can hold him for a couple of months. Then I can hook him up with the Core Rulebook (nicely contained, that, big plus) and since Paizo is partners with Reaper it creates rather a nice perfect storm of well-organized products for me to comprehend and support.

Shouldn't take too much effort to convince him it's as good as (or better than) D&D even if it doesn't have the branding.

[mikem91]

I was going to say Pathfinder.... :)

4th was a confused mess near the end - essentials and the new red box came in to lure in new players. But, they're not the same game as 4th.

Next is in playtest and pretty easy to get into - just ask. I don't think they're going to be shipping Next for a while. It's not really a good thing to try to start the hobby with.

IIRC, Wizards said they are going to put their entire back catalog into PDF for purchase starting 2013. So, that route is supposed to be open soon™.

I would recommend going with 3.5 given your criteria. The core books just released new collector's printings.

[Aphrella]

In my group we stick to 3.5 or Pathfinder - tried 4.0, didn't care for it - too much like cookie cutter characters.... I also played AD&D as a kid, but 3.5 was fairly easy to pick up - just decide what books you want to use and ignore the rest.... (unlike 4.0 where *every* book is core...) We also have the Pathfinder beginner box - haven't actually used it yet with the kids, but have looked through it and it looks to be a fairly streamlined (rules wise) and easy to get into.

[Adrift]

My group plays 4th edition currently. If you want to keep it in short order you can easily get away with the Essentials books, PHB1 and PHB2. Those books will give him quite an arsenal to choose from with regards to classes and give him the basics of the rules for running a game if he's feeling really adventurous with regards to DMing.

The problem with 4th edition, is it is driven by book production and the D&D Insider. There are a plethora of awesome options for building characters in 4th edition such that you and I could play the same "class" but do remarkably different things during combat. 4th ed combat is highly collaborative in that the team really supports the team; previous iterations of DnD I've played really had each player kinda doing their own thing.

Like all systems, there are good things and bad at every step of the way. There's no such thing as a perfect game/edition. It's all about having fun!

[buglips*the*goblin]

Lol, I don't need perfect - god knows 2nd isn't perfect (we ran into a rules snag yesterday with four different opinions). What I'm looking for is something pretty well contained rules and bookwise with room for expansion and imagination. My problem is that all of my customer experience is out of date.

With 2nd, all you needed was a PHB, DMG, and the Monstrous Manual. Complete game, ready to go. There was lots you could add, but the delineation between core and supplement was knife-edge clear. 4th to my eye is just a bewildering array of choice just to get started - and I'm conscious of the fact that whatever I set him out on he'll only have limited funds to buy into. I don't want to mortgage his allowance for the next two years just to play, but I also want to give him the ability to stay current.

4th seems to be the easier beginner rule system from what I read, but not well consolidated with its choice of material. I presume he'll be running things on his own with his own group. Possibly we'll show him a few ropes by letting him sit-in on our games. That might be logistically difficult, so I'm trying to plan with the idea that he'll be doing it mostly on his own with his circle of friends.

ETA: And also possibly being the first among them to start a game.

[Crier]

I play both 2nd Edition (it's what my father taught me to play) and 4th. I love the fact that 2nd can be played with 3 books as you stated. My honest opinion is to convert him to it. 4th is a mess, I have a lot of trouble personally understanding it, plus I personally have to use the computer to make the character sheets and to understand the bonuses and what not.

From what I understand and from having played a few games. 3.5 is a bit like 2 in that it can be played with a simple 3 books but it's more in depth then 2nd as for staying current I know a lot of the gamers I know who have advanced beyond 2nd edition are still with 3.5 because 4 is such a mess.

[buglips*the*goblin]

2nd has the advantage of being dirt cheap, but even if it is my preference I think I'd be denying him part of his "age experience" by getting him into that edition. He's about to break into the world of the FLGS/comic shop with his peers, and 2nd edition will relegate him to digging through secondhand shops. Not really the same thing.

[Lastman]

When I was your age we didn't have fancy editions. We had 3d6 in order and we liked it!

Screw the rules and go with the 1st "edition" guidelines for collaborative storytelling with minis and scenery. Rules systems get in the way of fun.

Have fun, fast. That's my motto. My ideal would be rules that fit on a 3x5 index card. What's the minimum you need? Hit, armor, health, movement. The rest is just the marketing department trying to sell stuff.

"Remember that time we debated the weight of arrowheads for 3 hours? That was epic."

[Matbar]

In my group we stick to 3.5 or Pathfinder - tried 4.0, didn't care for it - too much like cookie cutter characters.... I also played AD&D as a kid, but 3.5 was fairly easy to pick up - just decide what books you want to use and ignore the rest.... (unlike 4.0 where *every* book is core...) We also have the Pathfinder beginner box - haven't actually used it yet with the kids, but have looked through it and it looks to be a fairly streamlined (rules wise) and easy to get into.

Yeah I agree with this. None of my gaming group liked ANYTHING about 4, so 3.5 was the last one we upgraded to. Sure, nothing's perfect, but 4.0 is awful imo

[Doug Sundseth]

Given that you want the D&D brand, I'd go with 3.5. You can play a fine game with PHB, DMG, and the first Monster Manual. And nearly all the content from those books is available in the System Reference Document (SRD) for free. (FWIW, the Pathfinder SRD (also free) has nearly all the game content that Paizo has released, not just the core books.)

For reference, I started playing D&D with white box OD&D and played most of the editions and think that Pathfinder is the best incarnation so far. (OD&D wasn't even very good in 1978; don't go there.)

[Inarah]

Start him off on 2nd ed. You have the books, you are familiar with it. When you find out what his friends are playing you can buy into whatever system that is. No good spending $75 on Pathfinder books if they're running a 4th ed campaign.

Any of the old cheap editions will give him a good foundation for later editions.

[Sanael]

I'd also say 3.5 is a good bet...easy to find the core books, they aren't terribly expensive used (and they are expensive, but oh so pretty, in the recent leatherbound collector's printing), and you can have a great game just with the 3 core books. Plus it's a quick and easy jump to Pathfinder.

Although, tbh, I'd just get him pathfinder...it's the true heir to D&D (compared to 4th ed). Get the core book and one of the adventure paths, and suddenly there's a campaign waiting to happen.

[Girot]

Pathfinder was also going to be my suggestion too... but I would concure with 3.5, if you get a say in it.

I'd say have him find out what his friends are currently into and pick up some of that. While gaming at the house with an old master is going to be great fun, as you have pointed out, it's not going to do him any favors in fitting in with her perspective group. Set him up for success with his peers and let him find out on his own what is and isn't fun for him. When he comes to you for RPG mentoring figure out if its the story that interests him or simply hacking and slashing. If it's the latter you may have no recourse but to read his books too to help him out.

I've done a dozen roleplaying demos with many people (gamers and anti-gamers alike) with no pens, paper, dice, or books. I just threw them into a fracked up situation and let them react. So much win. {} I say run him through a no risk, no obligation, no cost jaunt through wonderland and see what happens.

Best of luck!

[Corporea]

we played 3.5 up until just a few months ago when we made the switch to pathfinder(3.75 anyone?) I tend to prefer 3.5 over 4th.

[buglips*the*goblin]

Thanks for all the input, you guys are the best!

So I'm pretty sure I've made my decision. I wanted to stay on-brand, but further research reveals the D&D new red box is . . . pretty horrid. And to build a complete game beyond that in 4th with books is poorly organized and rather a bit expensive. And I know 4th's obsolescence is imminent. It's just got too many strikes for what I need.

However, the Pathfinder beginner box looks fantastic for the price - and it goes to level 5. It's explanatory, a bit simplified, chock full of stuff, and should be enough to do a few months. It also segues neatly into the Core Rulebook. Then my part is pretty much done, he can explore supplements and additional monsters, and I can provide Bones figures and hobby materials as add-ons to my own purchases.

Rules aside (since I don't play either game), the difference in ease of access and commercial presentation between the two systems is night and day, and I think 4th came off badly in the contest. Pathfinder's presentation is solid and eases nicely from new player into the main rules. I have to say I'm very much impressed with that. So it looks like I have to go off-brand to get something that meets my requirements, but it's pretty much exactly what I was looking for.