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thoughts on different RPG game systems

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#76 klarg1

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 08:11 AM

Firewalling- keeping player knowledge apart from character knowledge- is a convention. It is not vital to play by it, depending on game, group, and style. Even if it's in play, you can push it, but you have to do so in a manner that fits the group's conventions. So a character may ask a question that may lead the right way, but that would have to be done in a credible fashion and dropped if it lead no-where.


I would say that rule one for an RPG (any game really), is that whatever works within your group is OK. We're all talking about general principles or anecdotes here. Certainly in my local group, we try hard to keep player knowledge and character knowledge separate, but not to ridiculous extremes.

On the other hand, Keeping the two separate can enrich your experience too, it does not have to be a burden:

One of the funniest (and, perhaps, also saddest) role-playing experiences I've had was back in college. I joined a group for a classic AD&D game. One of our members, a brilliant engineering student, wound up playing a dumb-as-a-post paladin for the whole two year campaign. There were times when you could see the look of frustration on his face when he had a clever idea for solving a particular problem, but didn't feel that he could suggest it because his character was just plain to dumb to think of it on his own. He was pretty good at hamming it up when appropriate.

The flip side is a player running a supposed super-genious. This comes up in all genres, but wizards are the classic example. We are not all super-geniuses, so it is sometimes just plain hard to role play one. This is an area where the rest of the players and/or the GM can help out. They may, collectively, be able to pull it off.
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#77 buglips*the*goblin

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 05:03 PM

Actually, I got around that super-genius problem. I had a time-travelling extradimensional tiefling wizard/cleric from an alternate universe (it's a long story, that) who had a 19 INT and a high WIS but still did stupid things.

Because she was careless. It wasn't that she couldn't quickly calculate the precise volume of the room and the fireball spell to set it off safely, she just couldn't be bothered. This frequently led to catastrophe.

When I had to actually act smart, I just took basic in-the-book knowledge (like, say, a diagram of the planes and how they worked) and garbled it up with technical speak that I said really, really fast. Add a touch of haughty arrogance, and frustration at the inability of the "slows" to keep up and understand, and even if it made no sense at all it sounded right.

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#78 dwarvenranger

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 07:33 PM

Bugs, sure your character wasn't a politician?

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#79 buglips*the*goblin

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 08:36 PM

Well, technically any character made in 2nd Edition Planescape is probably a politician. Since the setting is shaped by the conflict of ideologies and faction philosophy.

Vote Marilith for lower taxes and more Blood War slaves!

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Buglips, that is just epic, and so very wrong.


#80 Doug Sundseth

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 09:58 PM

Well, yes, but . . . if you take these to their logical end the problem often solves itself.

snip examples


That depends on how you define "the problem".

IME, this sort of situation tends to play out as follows:

Start with one to two hours of introductions and figuring out how the personalities will work together.

Then an hour or so of trying to convince the character that he should play along (at this point the other players are thinking/hoping that the player in question has created a character that is willing to be convinced to play along.)

Then another hour or two of increasingly acrimonious interaction to abandon or kill the abusive character.

Then at least another hour of arguments about why getting rid of the character was the only reasonable action/completely unreasonable because the player was "just playing his character".

Even if you dump the player after than (and it's fairly common that these players are friends) you've still lost a full evening of gaming to, at best, tedium.

I prefer to short-circuit that whole process and only allow characters that are willing to go along with the premise of the instant campaign. And I make sure that premise and my rules are very clear in advance. I've had those other discussions enough times by now that they hold no attraction for me whatsoever.

That said, your group sounds like it has a dynamic that works well for what you want out of it, so I'm certainly not advocating that you should do as I do (though I'm sure it would work better :rolleyes: ). We do this for fun, after all, so whatever maximizes that is the way to go — de gustibus non disputandum est.

#81 buglips*the*goblin

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 05:27 AM

Well, it did take a very long time for my group to evolve to this point.

And there's also a high level of trust established, so it's unlikely somebody would make a character just to troll in the first place - and if that came about, intentionally or accidentally, everybody already knows that consequences are consequences and played straight.

So with the Paladin, it'd go like this:

Player: "Ok, I'm rolling a character for the thieve's guild campaign."

DM: "Sure, what is it?"

Player: "A paladin."

DM: "Cool, so he's like undercover and trying to infiltrate the thieve's guild? Trying his best not to break his oaths while simultaneously keeping his cover, a trapped between two worlds/last noble man kind of thing?"

Player: "No . . . he's just a regular Paladin and doesn't hide it."

DM: "Oh. Well . . . better roll up a spare while you're at it."

The immediate assumption in our game, with the current players, is that if you make something oppositional you're going somewhere cool with it - but if you're not, the character is likely quickly doomed. But the DM, whichever one of us it is, knows nobody's out to break the game, twist things to their advantage, cause disruption just for the sake of it, or just make something powerful.

That gives us an unusual level of flexibility that, unfortunately, is not very common among D&D groups. So whenever I give an example, it's easy for me to forget that the peculiar nature of this group pre-eliminates many of the problems a campaign would normally encounter were they to implement the same thing.

And we still have a tendency to kill the people we probably should have talked to. But again, if an enemy comes to parley without obvious signs of truce, or something to offer, or a solid reason why we should listen, and we have the advantage - well, why wouldn't we logically wear their guts for garters? Now put us in a no-win situation, with half the party grievously wounded, and I'll turn chatty as a valley girl on, like, seven cups of coffee.

Full of cockiness, I once challenged a viking to a fight to prove I was the superior warrior. He quickly beat me senseless. Later I was compelled to go and grovel, in public, for his help. And nobody grovelled better, let me tell you! Now I'm working to make him an ally, if a contentious one, with the aim that at some point in the future we will probably face a hoard of baddies coming to loot/burn/murder his village. And there, amidst the barbs and pithy quips, I shall prove my skills . . . and try to leave a few enemy for him.

With luck, the odds will be long ones. At least a 50% chance we won't come out of it alive. The only way to win is with courage, luck, and brains. Ideally, our victory will be a pyrrhic one that costs us dearly. Perhaps I'll be separated from my viking friend, with different responsibilities on the field for my unit than his. Perhaps the enemy shall overwhelm us and break our lines, and I may see that he is being overrun - and face a choice: do I fall back my own troops to give them aid, possibly causing catastrophe? Hold tight and hope for the best? Perhaps I'll establish a volunteer suicidal rearguard and attempt to break through so as to unite his unit with mine to form a stronger levy. Maybe I'll be too late to help him. Maybe we'll fight side by side and he'll still die. And maybe if that happens, my arrogant southerner gypsy thief-disguised-as-a-fighter will realize that she really loved Baljag the viking, and should have told him when she had the chance, and told him the truth about herself, too, and perhaps treated these vikings better as a whole, for now I see how noble and rich their culture is. And this will change her perspective, and perspective defines reality, and moments like that are why I bother to pack my dice and pencils.

But I still killed the hell out of that elf that came to surrender and talk that one time. ::P:

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Buglips, that is just epic, and so very wrong.


#82 dwarvenranger

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 08:52 AM

Well, technically any character made in 2nd Edition Planescape is probably a politician. Since the setting is shaped by the conflict of ideologies and faction philosophy.

Vote Marilith for lower taxes and more Blood War slaves!


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#83 vutpakdi

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 08:23 PM

Just a suggestion from someone who hasn't played in a campaign for some time: while system can have an influence, the people, style of play and availability of groups will likely be more important than actual mechanics.

If you aren't enjoying the people or style of play (pacing, emphasis, story, tone), then the mechanics don't matter. If you've found your perfect system, but can't find a group, then the system isn't much use.

On the other hand, if you find a good group of people playing games that just flow for you, you can pick up the mechanics and deal with the details.

Ron

PS: gog.com has licensed, drm free versions of Baldur's Gate 1 and 2, Icewind Dale 1 and 2, and Neverwinter Nights for really good prices.
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#84 klarg1

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 09:19 AM

I know this is a bit late for the discussion, but:

If you are interested in running an RPG as a GM, I highly recommend reading Robin's Laws to good game mastering. It's very well written and provides all kinds of fantastic advice on how to make the most of your GM'ing experience. So far as I know, it is only available in PDF form these days, although you might be able to find a used copy some place.
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#85 TheAuldGrump

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 11:41 AM

Hmmm, there was one GM that I knew that had a 'Funeral In Progress' sign that he would pull out and put on the table for those special moments.

A paladin joining a thieves' guild would qualify....

I use a model of Charon and his boat.

The players learn to look for these 'subtle' clues.... ::P:

*EDIT* Back on topic -

I run Pathfinder and Spycraft 2.0. Standard fantasy is Pathfinder, with Spycraft I run Steampunk, using Elements of Magic: Mythic Earth for the magic system. (A feat and skill magic system by E N Publishing.)

Pathfinder is pretty much an improved 3.5, some systems were streamlined, some of the game logic of 3.5 carried further.

Spycraft is... meaty. Despite the name it can be used for pretty much any modern action adventure genre. I have used it for espionage/spy scenarios, but more often I use it for action in other forms. Pulp detectives, gold hunters in the Yukon, Indiana Jones style Archaeologists, paranormal investigation....

I ended up calling that one 'Scooby Punk' - a steampunk game where the PCs had this weird 'There's a mystery gang! Let's go solve it!' vibe. They were good guys and seemed to take arcane pleasure in not getting into combat. One scenario involved them at a ballroom dance, using two partner swaps and some illusions so they could avoid any battle. They drove me crazy! I ran a game for them this Hallowe'en past - they are currently 18th level, and have been in a total of three combats.

I avoid 4e like it was the plague. But really, it is more like running into a patch of nettles while strolling barefoot through dandelions.... Not life threatening, but painful, and you avoid it thereafter.

How WotC could have thought that dropping the OGL was a good idea... I dunno.

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#86 Argentee

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 03:34 PM

I ended up calling that one 'Scooby Punk' - a steampunk game where the PCs had this weird 'There's a mystery gang! Let's go solve it!' vibe. They were good guys and seemed to take arcane pleasure in not getting into combat. One scenario involved them at a ballroom dance, using two partner swaps and some illusions so they could avoid any battle. They drove me crazy! I ran a game for them this Hallowe'en past - they are currently 18th level, and have been in a total of three combats.

I wish you were in Florida, I think I'd love this group! (there. Typo fixed. Posting from my phone is a pain).

Edited by Argentee, 10 November 2012 - 06:32 PM.

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#87 kay13

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 06:24 PM


I ended up calling that one 'Scooby Punk' - a steampunk game where the PCs had this weird 'There's a mystery gang! Let's go solve it!' vibe. They were good guys and seemed to take arcane pleasure in not getting into combat. One scenario involved them at a ballroom dance, using two partner swaps and some illusions so they could avoid any battle. They drove me crazy! I ran a game for them this Hallowe'en past - they are currently 18th level, and have been in a total of three combats.

I wish you were in Florida, I think I'd live this group!


That game sounds fun!





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