56 replies to this topic

[highpriestrsw2]

I'm a big fan of the AG Productions painting videos. In his newest video he states that Master Series Paints were designed for wet blending and not for layering and that there is a large amount of flow improver in the paints to help support this painting technique. He also describes a few problems he's had with MSP. I myself have had the "tacky" feeling happen to dried MSP paints and I've also had the cracking "dry lake bed effect" that he describes in his video. I just thought it was because of the humidity in the air or that I had mixed my paint incorrectly. Has anyone else had these kind of problems? Does anyone have any advice on how to correct this or keep it from happening?

[ixminis]

The problem being described sounds like something *other* than the typical characteristics of the MSP line. If you are having something other than a smooth surface, then it's time to run do a little bit of forum troubleshooting. If you'd do a bit of describing the steps being taken to get to that point, that will help us narrow down the cause.

While it may be an odd question, do you live in a cold climate... or one that can have cold (freezing) temperatures on a semi-regular basis?

Appreciate the link to the video as well. Sounds like a former NORDS employee (If I'm spelling it right, I know little about that venture, so I don't want to do any mis-informing).

Regards,

[highpriestrsw2]

The problem being described sounds like something *other* than the typical characteristics of the MSP line. If you are having something other than a smooth surface, then it's time to run do a little bit of forum troubleshooting. If you'd do a bit of describing the steps being taken to get to that point, that will help us narrow down the cause.

While it may be an odd question, do you live in a cold climate... or one that can have cold (freezing) temperatures on a semi-regular basis?

Appreciate the link to the video as well. Sounds like a former NORDS employee (If I'm spelling it right, I know little about that venture, so I don't want to do any mis-informing).

Regards,

In Michigan we do get cold weather from time to time.

I was using GW primer but lately I haven't been using it. I've switched to a sandable automotive primer. The results I had were during cold weather last year. I've been experimenting with other paints instead of MSP since then until I can figure this problem out.
I normally dilute my paints with a couple drops of flow improver and distilled water until I get a milky consistency.
I only have the crusty drying problem when I layer a paint color on top of another. I always seem to have the tacky drying problem.

Also, what the heck is NORDS?

[Serenity]

This page will answer your first question: Paints FAQ. Item 2 is most relevant, but it's all good to know.

I had the crusty drying problem once, but I was using thick layers, so I didn't blame the paint. I've never had tacky drying. Have you tried using water only to dilute? Flow improver shouldn't be a problem, assuming you use Reaper's and/or follow the directions to dilute it on the brand you have (typically 20:1 water to flow improver). I've used Liquitex Flow Aid as high as 4:1 water to flow improver without any problems.

[Jubilee]

I used to get crackled affects with the reaper MSPs. With Anne's help, I decided to switch from Krylon primer to Tamiya Fine Surface Primer. I don't understand the chemistry of it, but someone explained it once - in any case I haven't had any crackling sense.

I think it's odd someone would claim MSPs were designed for blending. As far as I know, Marike prefers the Vallejos for blending - something about the elasticity of the vinyl base. Anne has said before that she designed the MSPs for layering.

Everyone has a different way to approach things, though.

[All-Terrain Monkey]

To me, claiming Anne is a wet-blender is like claiming Jen Haley only dry-brushes and dips her figures; I'm not sure where this guy thinks he knows things from . Try not adding anything to MSP's but water; they work just fine, and you don't have to spend money on extra additives for no reason. Jubilee nailed it on the head why real wet-blenders like Marike prefer to use vinyl-based acrylics for wet blending.

If this is any indication of the quality of information from this guy, maybe you should find other videos to watch, Highpriestrsw2, like Laszlo Jakusovszky's videos (another great wet-blender, who isn't Anne) or Jeremie Bonamant Teboul .

Er, just watched both sections of that video; I don't think this guy realizes that not only does Anne make both lines, but she puts flow improver in both. This makes me giggle like crazy .

[highpriestrsw2]

To me, claiming Anne is a wet-blender is like claiming Jen Haley only dry-brushes and dips her figures; I'm not sure where this guy thinks he knows things from . Try not adding anything to MSP's but water; they work just fine, and you don't have to spend money on extra additives for no reason. Jubilee nailed it on the head why real wet-blenders like Marike prefer to use vinyl-based acrylics for wet blending.

If this is any indication of the quality of information from this guy, maybe you should find other videos to watch, Highpriestrsw2, like Laszlo Jakusovszky's videos (another great wet-blender, who isn't Anne) or Jeremie Bonamant Teboul .

Er, just watched both sections of that video; I don't think this guy realizes that not only does Anne make both lines, but she puts flow improver in both. This makes me giggle like crazy .

I love the Hot Lead video snippets I've seen on youtube and hopefully my order for the DVD will be filled sometime soon. I really like like Jeremie Bonamant Teboul's stuff too but finding a multi-language copy of that right now is just about impossible. I'm really weird about who I'll buy from online. (bad experiences with some vendors and my FLGS today told me he wasn't sure if he could get Reaper stuff anymore when I asked him to order me some MSPs <and he goes through Alliance> so having him order it is probably out of the question.)
I have both DVD sets on order through the warstore so whenever they get restocked I'll have them.
Does anyone know if the miniature mentor DVD is any good?

[All-Terrain Monkey]

The Miniature Mentor series has a pretty good production value, and you get the benefit of a large array of artists and styles to choose from, but I recommend Laszlo and Jeremie over Miniature Mentor simply for the fact Laszlo and Jeremie are painters making DVDs about painting they way they think painting DVDs should be made, and Miniature Mentor (Sonny, I believe is the name; had a couple of beers with him a couple of times but that was years back) is super-enthusiastic about the hobby but isn't as much of a painter himself. I think sometimes Miniature Mentor focuses on the wrong aspects of what the person is doing at the time instead of the meatier info, but that's just my personal opinion.

[Cypharius]

First off, the Miniature mentor vids are well worth a look, along with the Hot Lead vids, i've learned a lot about painting through these. They are also done in a way that shows you the styles that can be applied to all your work, unlike some other vids that are basically handholding you through one model at a time.

As to the vids, I remember some of his earlier vids and think that for whatever reason he's a bit jaded and blinkered. I suspect his painting style added to the fact that he is largely painting for comission, rather than like most of us as a hobby, naturally gravitates him towards using VMC paints.

I've tried Citadel, VMG, VMC, VMA, Coat D'Arms, (old Citadel) Foundry paints and MSP. I have the entire range of all of the paints mentioned and bar the VMA paints, which I still use for Airbrushing, I now pretty much use the MSP paints. Why? Because my paint style means they are easier to work with than most of the others. That is the critical part, it's a personal choice. Most of these vids by people on places like YouTube tend to have hearsay or worse a very opinionated, blinkered view that unfortunately other people will blindly follow and spread disinformation even further with no real substance behind the statements.

Time for a large pinch of salt, methinks.

[Vaitalla]

Heya all. Not much time this morning but wanted to contribute to the "dry lake bed" thing.

The crackling, as we call it, is a phantom issue that we have been trying to pin down for a while. It does not happen consistently from color to color or even from base to base or bottle to bottle, giving me endless frustration. It doesn't even happen consistently from day to day--paints which have crackled for someone one day might be used another day with no issue.

We have isolated a few contributing factors, the primary one of which is the thickness that the paint is applied, the second one the hardness/lack of tooth of the underlying surface (thus, hypothetically, why a switch in primer seems to fix it).

I use these paints every day, and work with all different colors. The ONLY time that I have ever had one crackle on me was when I painted a thick layer of black over a hard resin base. That was the only time I was able to duplicate the effect. Needless to say, that makes it extremely hard to troubleshoot!

Re: the tacky feeling, I have experienced it with all different paints when extender (drying retarder) is added (that is, if I'm understanding what you are describing). It may also result from excess flow improver being added, depending on which brand of flow improver (some are "stickier" than others). MSP's work best with just water added, that's why we add flow improver to them: so you don't need to!

As for the suggestion that MSP's are more suited to wet blending than to layering, that leads me to believe that the guy in the video just isn't that experienced with advanced techniques and applications. For MSP's to work with wet-blending, you need to lay down an initial coat of color, because of their transparency. That very transparency is what makes them so nice to layer and glaze with.

--Anne

[vutpakdi]

I think that I've had the crackling effect once, probably because I slopped the paint on.

I've never noticed any dry paint being tacky.

I really only do layering (transparent style, not the opaque, Kevin Dallimore style), and the MSPs work just fine for me.

I was amused by the "the Model Colour line is huge compared the MSP line" type comment. Huh? Aren't both around 200 or so colors each? And "viscous = liquidy"? Huh? Something that is viscous is thick and not thin.

And, I've never been in a store where the choices are GW or Reaper MSP. If anything, I see GW, P3, and maybe Vallejo. Reaper is much less common.

Ron

[ledfloyd]

... Heya all. Not much time this morning but wanted to contribute to the "dry lake bed" thing.

The crackling, as we call it, is a phantom issue that we have been trying to pin down for a while. It does not happen consistently from color to color or even from base to base or bottle to bottle, giving me endless frustration. It doesn't even happen consistently from day to day--paints which have crackled for someone one day might be used another day with no issue.

We have isolated a few contributing factors, the primary one of which is the thickness that the paint is applied, the second one the hardness/lack of tooth of the underlying surface (thus, hypothetically, why a switch in primer seems to fix it).

I use these paints every day, and work with all different colors. The ONLY time that I have ever had one crackle on me was when I painted a thick layer of black over a hard resin base. That was the only time I was able to duplicate the effect. Needless to say, that makes it extremely hard to troubleshoot! ...

--Anne

I would assume that the drying speed of a thicker layer of paint would be most of the issue. ie. Too thick a layer of paint (in conjunction with the situations previously mentioned) drying too fast, from; high ambient temperature and low humidity, put under a hot bulb, being blowdried etc. Also, would handling the model, leaving finger residue, contribute to the "dry lake bed" effect?

From an Autobody FAQ:
Cracking (Line Checking, Micro-Checking)

Condition : A series of deep cracks resembling mud cracks in a dry pond and in no definite pattern, they are usually through the color coat and sometimes the undercoat as well.

Causes
Excessive film thickness. (Excessively thick topcoats magnify normal stresses and strains which can result in cracking even under normal conditions.)
Materials not uniformly mixed.
Insufficient flash time.
Incorrect use of additive.

Prevention
Don't pile on topcoats. Allow sufficient flash and dry time between coats. Do not dry by gun fanning.
Stir all pigmented undercoats and topcoats thoroughly. Strain and where necessary, add Fish Eye Eliminator to topcoats.
Read and carefully follow label instructions. (Additives not specifically designed for a color coat may weaken the final paint film and make it more sensitive to cracking.)

[vutpakdi]

I posted a comment on the youtube video politely questioning his "Vallejo Model Colour selection is HUGE compared to Reaper MSP", saying that most stores that I've seen have GW, P3, and Vallejo and rarely MSP, and saying that I've only once encountered the crackling paint problem and never the sticky paint problem.

My comment appeared.

And, a few hours later, my comment seems to be gone.

Ron

[Jubilee]

Ironically, I have a tendancy to overthin my paints, and I got the crackling (just to make Anne crazier).

[Enchantra]

The only time I've experienced both of the problems mentioned above is when I didn't thin the paint enough or I accidentally grabbed my flow improver plus water solution to dilute the paints. Using straight water I have no problems.