74 replies to this topic

[kristof65]

Over on this thread here, thanks to a pic I posted of a Space Marine with a swastika on it's shoulder pad, IW and I got into a discussion about the Imperium of the 40k universe being rather comparable to the Hitler's Third Reich. We're both pretty much in agreement, I wondered what others thought. I'm starting a new thread as not to derail his original thread:

Well it's pretty clear that the Imperiaum of Man are nothing more than space Nazis but I'm not sure why anyone would want to take it that far. To each his own I guess,

His chapter (one of about five he has) actually came about for a couple of different reasons. At one point in the early 40k days, he was lamenting the fact that the decals available for shoulder pads were pretty limiting - other than the GW stuff, the only other choices that were widely available were from 1/285th historical lines. Then there was some sort of dare to go with the swastika's for a chapter, so he did. It kind of snowballed from there.

In a lot of the mass 40k battles we played, his 13th Legion, as he calls them, are kind of bad guys - they're on the side of the Imperium, but as you can imagine, they aren't the best of the "good guys". They were getting shot in the back a lot by their allies in our battles. Which really made them even more fun when he fielded them. So the gift from me to him is really an homage to all the fun I've had playing 40k with/against him and this particular chapter over the years.

To me the scariest thing about them is when you see a space marine army painted up in the colors of the 3rd Reich, and you compare a lot of the background fluff of the Imperium with real history. Just replace Aryan with Human and Jew with Alien, and it really seems like a "natural" fit for 40k. They really look like they "belong" in the 40k universe more so than the Ultramarines do.

Oh you don't have to justify it to me. Historic Players who play Germans in WWII arn't all closet Nazis either although I've ran in to a few who make me wonder.

That was my point though. I've never seen the Imperium of Man as the "Good Guys" in 40K. In fact I don't think there is a good guy army in the game. Orks come closest since they are only acting according to their nature. The Imperium is quite dark and obviously facist in nature. In fact the Imperium pretty much is the realization of a Nazi dream future. Almost everything about the design of the Imperium is far more "offensive" when you think about it than a mere swastika which is only a symbol and not even one that had any facist connotations befor the Nazis. I think the Imperium was designed that way because 40K is a dark and gothic game setting and not to advance any facist agenda. He's probably right painting up a chapter of marines as literal space Nazis seems almost natural and at the very least an honest statement about a race of super soldiers who would make Hitler do a happy dance if they were a reality. I've only seen a couple depictions of Space Marines that didn't look like perfect Aryans after all. I use to joke about the art and painted miniature examples by saying "In the Grim Darknes of the Far Future There is Only War.....and white people" because all their minis were white guys.

Still not something I would want to do myself but like I said to each his own.

[Lars Porsenna]

The whole point of 40K is there are no good guys

Imperium: exreme racism/paranoia
Eldar: extreme racism and paranoia
Orks: hit things...a lot
Tyrranids: eats everthing
Necrons: space droid undead. Wants to destroy/feed on life
Chaos: hate everything
Tau: space commies...(hah!)

Damon.

[kristof65]

At one time, I think the Space Marines were supposed to be the good guys. I've seen the background grow increasingly dark over the years, but in the initial books, I don't recall the Imperium being portrayed as dark as it was.

[Joe Kutz]

I wouldn't consider the Eldar racist - they just know they are better than everyone else. That isn't really racism...narcissism maybe...ego maniacal maybe...but not really racist. Unlike the Empire, I don't recall any of the fluff that actually indicates Eldar attacking for no reason. The reasons may not seem clear to the other races, but they normally have just cause for what they do.

Along with them - the orks aren't really that bad. Remember, they are kind of a biological weapon that no one is manning the trigger to. You can fault the scorpion because it stings you, it is in his nature.

[tombwalker]

You forgot the Dark Eldar - Sado-masachistic hate everyone.

[warlordgarou]

At one time, I think the Space Marines were supposed to be the good guys. I've seen the background grow increasingly dark over the years, but in the initial books, I don't recall the Imperium being portrayed as dark as it was.

I think it is actually less dark than it used to be. Here is some stuff from RT.

"For the Emperor the only viable sustenance is human life-force - soul - and he has a great and insatiable appetite. . . The Inquisition scours the Imperium in a tireless search . . . but many more will serve their Emperor in a more gruesome way. Given up to the weird machinery that surrounds the Master of Mankind, their souls will be gradually leeched from their bodies to feed the Emperor's spirit. Hundreds must die in this way every day if the Emperor, the Imperium and humanity are to survive."

(followed by "It's for the greater good" justification.)

"The draft, administered by the priesthood, is a hated and feared institution. Almost anyone outside of the imperial administration may find themselves drafted in to the army. Service is always for life. . "

"Military service as a warrior of the Imperium is a common sentence for minor criminals. Their offenses might include filling out tax returns incorrectly (willful fraud, however, is a capital offense), overdue library books, failure to maintain drains, littering, etc. Service is for life." (later on they introduced the penal legion human bombs, but I don't think they are in the original RT book.)

[SaintRigger]

it is neat how you can see the impact that 2000 AD and Judge Dredd had on the early days of GW.

[ixminis]

At one time, I think the Space Marines were supposed to be the good guys. I've seen the background grow increasingly dark over the years, but in the initial books, I don't recall the Imperium being portrayed as dark as it was.

Erm... some pretty old fluff has the injured emperor on the golden throne (there's a joke in there somewhere) consuming 10,000 psykers a day for 10,000 years... or something like that. Not really a rainbow bright vision of mankind if you think about it. From my perspective, the intent has always been to make it dark.

Regarding whether or not there are Nazi parallels... most of the flavor text is re-hashed world history, so there may be some similarities. I always felt strong Spanish Inquisition undertones compared to strong Nazi undertones.

***edit*** dang, missed warlorgarou's comments before posting...

meh...

[Sergeant_Crunch]

And as we all know....no one escapes the Spanish Inquisition!

[Joe Kutz]

It always makes me laugh when people say that something was stolen from a GW product. Which, from my vantage point hasn't really had an original idea in their game system's fluff...since...ever.

Between history, pop-culture and fictional works - most of the GW background information can be found already. They tend to cherry pick and change the names to make it seem like they had an original idea.

[Lars Porsenna]

There is very little in literature that is truely "original." All borrows from past works. One could say FREX that Tolkien just rips off Angsax culture and legends to create his fantasy world. And Lewis ripped off Christianity...

Damon.

[tombwalker]

They can't have an original idea when it's all borrowed from elsewhere. The new tyrandis looks an awful lot like another range of figures. Unfortunatly my sieve brain can't remember the name but they mostlye had no legs and had long tails.

Grendel miniatures did a lot of terrain stuff for them. A-ha found it with a quick search. Kryomek from the afor mentioned Grendel (actually Scotia Grendel but heh!).

quite like the Grendel stuff over GW actually.

Their Syntha Grav Bikes are sweet and much better than GW Bikes/Landspeeders

Anyway Necrons are the true rulers. They were there when the universe was cleaned of the filth, and will do it again!

[papabees]

In truth the Chaos Marines are the good guys fighting against an oppressive and dictatorial regime. Unfortunately they are the victims of an effective propaganda machine.

[SaintRigger]

Between history, pop-culture and fictional works - most of the GW background information can be found already. They tend to cherry pick and change the names to make it seem like they had an original idea.

That is what I really like about GW, actually :)
It's sort of a fun hodge podge of everything I like, all mushed up and seasoned with their own particular "spices". I don't think anyone would claim to be an original idea, really.

It is like music (or any other artistic endevour) - you can see how various artists are influenced by other artists.

I think Kryomek came out after the tyranids were introduced. Both are heavily influenced by the movie "Alien" and "Aliens" which in turn gets it look from HR Giger (who was hired to do the design)

You also see a lot of the GW artists, especially John Blance inspired by Bosche and Bruegel.

Most of the staff of GW are also bigtime historical gamers, so you definately see the influence of history on their worlds. In fact, many of them who have left (or some who are still with the company) have released and/or are now working on historical games and models.

What makes me sad is their new stuff isn't as blatent as their old stuff - you look at the old Rogue Trader and you can specifically point out Judge Dredd (right down to stubbers and las-guns), various other 2000 AD comics and Dune references.

Back on the topic - I think calling the Imperium "Space nazis" really over simplifies things. Members of the imperium definately have their fascist leanings, but not every fascist is a nazi.

Space Marines harken back to the Roman Legions. Catholicism and the history of the catholic church also really play into things as well. As well as warrior monks. Many of the stories are taken from mythological texts and biblical stories. The struggle of the Emperor and the traitor marines are similar to those of God vs Lucifer (one of his strongest and favored creations) - being cast into the Eye of Terror is like being cast into hell. You also have overtones of Ceasar crossing the Rubicon.

Corax who is the primarch of the Raven Guard chapter is quoted with saying "Nevermore" after the Heresy. Corax is the latin species name of the common raven (Corvus Corax) and "nevermore" is from Edgar Allen Poe's poem "The Raven".

Along those lines the Primarch of the Dark Angels is Lion El'Johnson. There is a poen named Lionel Johnson who wrote a poem called "The Dark Angel" (in which he agonizes about his homosexuality and his religion). So now you know what the giant secret the Dark Angels have actually is. ;)

It is a fun game to play "Spot the influences" - the end up being like little easter eggs which really flesh out and make the universe more fun.

PS - I sort of think putting swastikas on space marines is in bad taste to an extent as it doesn't really reflect the nature of space marines (If any aspects of the imperium are to be considerd "nazis" it would be elements of the Inquisition simply because it is easier and safer to wipe out any abnormalities/aliens than it is to rtry to justify the existance of some which may be beneficial - and the High Lords of Terra. Also because of what the swastika has come to stand for, apart from it's original intention in various budhist and indian cultures, it is rather offensive to many people - and adding it to a chapter of marines seems like a slightly childish way of jumping up and saying "Hey! Look at me, look what I did, isn't it *edgy*!!"

PPS - if you wanted your swastika to make your marines look like Space Nazis - it is backwards.
http://www.klisia.ne...og/swastika.png

Edited by SaintRigger, 02 August 2008 - 05:44 PM.

[SaintRigger]

In truth the Chaos Marines are the good guys fighting against an oppressive and dictatorial regime. Unfortunately they are the victims of an effective propaganda machine.

HAHA! :)