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Ranting of a lunatic


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#1 ReaperClark

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Posted 28 May 2008 - 11:31 PM

It's like Reaper is trying to hit a target that WotC has already struck a bullseye on instead of showing WotC how it should be done


What I find most interesting is that people assume that Reaper cares what WotC does or does not do, or that we are trying to "compete" in some manner with them. Has anyone ever thought that we will have no impact on WotC whatsoever, and that they have no impact on us, and that we are just doing what we do, making the best miniatures we know how to make? At best, I think we might deflate the secondary market a bit because you don't have to search them down on e-bay, you can just buy them, regardless of the price.

By moving to plastic minis, WotC has finally figured out how to make minis work for them as they could not seem do it with metal. Kudos to WotC for coming up with a successful way to make minis work for them, finally.

But, I think the success has more to due with the fact they made them collectable then that they made them plastic or are making them for what people want or even need to play the/any game. They moved the CCG sales strategy to minis. The plastic probably came about because Hasbro has been making game tokens and action figures in China for years and already had the resources line up to take advantage of the cheap labor over seas. That and plastic is virtually indestructible and the models can last a lot longer and store easier when using them for game play. Who cares if you sweep your hand across the table and knock down all of the figs. Ain't gonna hurt'em. Do that to my painted metal army and the war is on! At the same time, I think if they had done the same thing in metal, they would have had similar results; it is just that now they also appeal to the people that don't care about the hobby and just want to play. End result, larger customer base! The whole thing was brilliant; you can't argue that.

I think it would be fun to try a collectable metal line, just to see how well it does.

They sell the quantities they expect to hit and are happy with those sales, even though they are loosing huge dollars to the secondary market. Now, if they could figure out a way to tap, corner, and control that market too, they would have an even more successful product. Someday, I should think that the whole collectable thing would go by the wayside just like Beanie Babies and Cabbage Patch dolls. Then the wind will be out of the sails and the plastic minis will dry up quickly.

The sculptures are mostly second rate, as they really don't care about the art as much as supplying a close proximity to the creature that they represent, as they are truly game tokens, not sculptures for sculptures sake. The paint jobs are adequate as that is all they need to be. Think of it this way, the paint jobs are better then a lot of people are able to do themselves and are much better then unpainted figures for a game table. The sculptures, even more so. And, you don't have to do it yourself. At the same time, with a bit of practice, most people could paint them better, if they wanted to take the time. I bet everyone would like to see better sculptures and paint jobs, but ultimately, as long as the models fit the bill, WotC and their customers don't really care.

I doubt there are many of the plsatic models that people put on the fireplace mantel because they are just that cool, or that they are that proud of, unlike a well painted metal mini that you spent hours and hours perfecting or paid someone a lot of money to paint for you. I suppose if I had a really rare model that I did or did not pay big bucks for I might set it out as a source of pride just like a beanie baby under a glass display, but probably not. They are cheap toys, not display pieces.

I really don't think the WotC folks are sitting around going, "How can we impress the best sculptors and painters in the world." I think they are probably saying what can we make, as interesting as possible and as cheaply as possible, that gets our point across and makes the customer happy enough to buy them. That and what stats can we give them to make them more appealing too. Make the more expensive to manufacture and niftier models rare so you don't have to spend as much money making as many of them and at the same time, drive up the sales by selling them collectible and blind.

Hook, line and sinker... maybe even the pole.

Reaper is simply making plastic model the way we see fit for us. If we wanted to take the WotC path, ours would be collectable and blind and we would base our entire methodology on what WtoC is or is not doing, right or wrong. Our methods are based on what has worked for us in metal and what we think will therefore work in plastic. And, guess what? If we are wrong, then we steer the ship in a new direction. It really is that simple. But, I'm game, how should it be done? Reaper has always tried its best not to follow anyone and to try to set new grounds while remaining as stable as possible. If our sales are not as good on this batch of plastic, then the next round will be a different mix. For a while though, each round will be different anyway as we experiment with the minis just to see what is popular and what works or not.

Only time will tell...

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#2 wildbill

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Posted 29 May 2008 - 06:26 AM

I already know of one problem with your plastic mini line: no Dwarves. I mean, really? Who wouldn't want prepainted plastic Dwarves? :wub:

WotC has become the GW of like, everything that GW doesn't have a hand in. :wacko: Take a Reaper PPM and hold it up next to a WotC PPM. No contest. Reaper wins hands down in the quality contest. Where does WotC beat Reaper? Volume. But, again, WotC is like GW: they have mega-bucks to throw around, and a very rabid fanbase that is willing to shell out boat-loads of cash for crap. "Hi. My name is Wild Bill, and I used to be a GW and WotC addict." ::):

I think the market is big enough for everyone to find their niche. I've just been waiting for Reaper to really spool up and start selling more of these things.

Wild Bill :blues:

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#3 Reaperbryan

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Posted 29 May 2008 - 08:23 AM

We're moving on this cautuously because we don't want to make huge mistakes with the line and go the way of soo many companies before us. Have patience and ye shall see the things ye are waiting for.

Soon™.

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#4 Shakandara

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Posted 29 May 2008 - 09:28 AM

I think it would be fun to try a collectable metal line, just to see how well it does.

Isn't that essentially what the con sophies are? Or Freebooter's Christmas minis? It seems like they do ok, but where they really shine (just like any other collectible) is in the secondary market.

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#5 kristof65

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Posted 29 May 2008 - 09:39 AM

I already know of one problem with your plastic mini line: no Dwarves. I mean, really? Who wouldn't want prepainted plastic Dwarves? :wub:

Me. Yecchhh, stinky, smelly dwarves. :wacko: :wacko: :wacko:

Ok, so I dislike Dwarves intensely - but I know they do sell, and wierdos like Wild Bill like them, so I suppose you can make some sometime.


I think the market is big enough for everyone to find their niche. I've just been waiting for Reaper to really spool up and start selling more of these things.

Ditto for me.

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#6 vutpakdi

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Posted 29 May 2008 - 10:23 AM

I think it would be fun to try a collectable metal line, just to see how well it does.

Isn't that essentially what the con sophies are? Or Freebooter's Christmas minis? It seems like they do ok, but where they really shine (just like any other collectible) is in the secondary market.

Not really. To do something similar, you'd take, say, all of the minis of the Warlord line out of general blister distribution and randomly put them in opaque boxes.

Opening each box, you might find 4 grunts (from various factions), 1-2 adepts, and then a leader or elite. Sergeants would be more common than captains, and warlords would be extremely rare. The idea would be to require people to purchase a block of minis, sight unseen, in order to have the chance of getting something good. Sort of like a lottery.

To field a single faction, you'd have to buy a case or two of these boxes just to get enough minis. Most of the time, you'd be playing freelance.

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#7 morganm

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Posted 29 May 2008 - 10:26 AM

It's like Reaper is trying to hit a target that WotC has already struck a bullseye on instead of showing WotC how it should be done


What I find most interesting is that people assume that Reaper cares what WotC does or does not do, or that we are trying to "compete" in some manner with them. Has anyone ever thought that we will have no impact on WotC whatsoever, and that they have no impact on us, and that we are just doing what we do, making the best miniatures we know how to make? At best, I think we might deflate the secondary market a bit because you don't have to search them down on e-bay, you can just buy them, regardless of the price.


Regardless if you acknowledge it or not; Reaper is in competition with WotC... and every other mini producer out there. You do have an impact on them and they unto you. Every time someone chooses a one manufacturer over another there is competition and impact on one another. Reaper may not be TRYING to compete with others; but they are.

I'm curious about the topic of this thread. Who is the ranting lunatic? I really didn't think you were ranting or a lunatic nor did I think I was when I made that quoted statement. I've actually been a lot less critical than some others on the board here about the LE product line.
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#8 Doug's Workshop

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Posted 29 May 2008 - 10:47 AM

By way of introductions, I'm a painter first and a gamer second. (Someday my dwarves will see the battlefield!)

I really like how Reaper has handled their plastics line. Oh, sure, I'd like to see them start throwing out more and varied miniatures, but looking at it from a business perspective, they won't crash and burn with this line. Any new venture, done poorly, could irrepairably damage a company, small or large.

No one offers painted plastics like Reaper does right now. They are perfect for gamers who don't want to paint, or don't want to wade through the secondary market. They're also pretty good for mook troops, so I can spend my time painting the characters of my Warlord army. All in all, that's a pretty good place to be.

As for the way other companies run their businesses, I say more power to them. If they can compete and thrive, good. But there's a reason I'm rebasing my undead army for Warlord, and why I went to True20 for my rpg needs.

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#9 morganm

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Posted 29 May 2008 - 10:51 AM

As for the way other companies run their businesses, I say more power to them. If they can compete and thrive, good.
Thanks, ReaperPeople!


I completely agree! I'm not trying to tell anyone how to run thier buisness. Just voicing my opinons on some forum.

Take them with a grain of salt :)
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#10 wildbill

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Posted 29 May 2008 - 12:18 PM

...and wierdos like Wild Bill like them...


Hey now. Any Dwarf player is the normal person around here. All of the rest of you are the weirdos for not being Dwarf players. ::P: :lol:

I've just been waiting for the line to increase in general. That's all. ::):

Wild Bill :blues:

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#11 ReaperClark

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Posted 29 May 2008 - 12:29 PM

Regardless if you acknowledge it or not; Reaper is in competition with WotC... and every other mini producer out there. You do have an impact on them and they unto you. Every time someone chooses a one manufacturer over another there is competition and impact on one another. Reaper may not be TRYING to compete with others; but they are.


I'm curious about the topic of this thread. Who is the ranting lunatic? I really didn't think you were ranting or a lunatic nor did I think I was when I made that quoted statement. I've actually been a lot less critical than some others on the board here about the LE product line.


I am the lunatic ranting. That was a heck of a rant I should say! And, the reason I did not add your name to the quote was to keep from implying anyone but me as a lunatic, your words were just the sample I used to get my point across. No offense to you, or anyone else, was intended.

In the broad spectrum of things we are also competing with Sony, Paramount, the Dallas Cowboys, and anyone else trying to earn your entertainment dollar. Collectible minis are a different market and therefore, not in direct competition to what we are doing. Yep, they are minis, but are not hobby minis. Yep, they can be used for the same things but that is is crossover, and that's what it is, crossover. For example, we see no impact in our sales from a WotC new release of minis. If we were in direct competition, every release of theirs would cause a significant drop in our sales for that week or maybe even a month. It just doesn't happen that way. Sorry to tell you this but we are not in direct competition with WotC no matter how you feel about it. These are the facts, not my opinion. I bet WtoC would agree with me as well. Someone should ask them.
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#12 morganm

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Posted 29 May 2008 - 12:47 PM

Thanks for explaining it more specifically. The point about WotC releases and your sales numbers is enlightening.

No offense taken at all; just the opposite... I'm honored to have been quoted and prompt such a lengthy post! =)
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#13 joshuaslater

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Posted 29 May 2008 - 01:04 PM

Pah!! Look what happened when Target games had huge market share with Chronopia and Warzone and then went b___s deep into computers. Crash and burn. Now the fans have no support, except on the community level.

Don't let Reaper go down that path of flames and stupidity, by getting too big for yer britches. Go as slow as you need to, because I was already mourning the loss of Olley's Armies, and if Reaper goes under, I'll cry like a little girl.
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#14 kristof65

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Posted 29 May 2008 - 01:31 PM

Collectible minis are a different market and therefore, not in direct competition to what we are doing. Yep, they are minis, but are not hobby minis. Yep, they can be used for the same things but that is is crossover, and that's what it is, crossover.

I have this gut feeling that more of the DDMs are crossover sales than WotC would care to admit. I know lots of people (including myself) who have bought DDMs, but I know no one who actually plays the DDM minis game. I've seen it played at our local cons, so I know people are playing it - just no one I know. Still, all those crossover sales drive the apparent success of the game, I think mainly because unlike CCGs, the minis themselves have uses outside their core game.

Still, I don't see the two lines as direct competitors either. What I see is the LE line coming into to fill a percieved (and apparently or at least hopefully real) need to have PPMs that are sold in a non-blind, non-collectible format. Unlike a lot of other gaming related items, minis are rather versatile - that is, like dice, a mini itself really isn't tied to any particular game system - it may be sold as such, but most people buy miniatures they like and/or have a use for. That pretty much means that unless the market is oversaturated with a particular type of figure, most companies are better off focusing on what will sell, rather than what other companies are/aren't selling.

And speaking of saturation, just what determines the saturation point? Look at Orcs and Goblins. Over the years, there have to have been at least 1000 different variations of orcs put out in miniature form by 50+ different companies, and yet they're still popular sellers.

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#15 joshuaslater

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Posted 29 May 2008 - 02:24 PM

speaking of saturation, just what determines the saturation point? Look at Orcs and Goblins. Over the years, there have to have been at least 1000 different variations of orcs put out in miniature form by 50+ different companies, and yet they're still popular sellers.



Yup. Kristof65 took all the lunacy out'the rant. Well spoke.
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