121 replies to this topic

[Spike]

It's a perfectly normal way to feel. I mean, Lesser Orcs are really cute and I like being able to take Hill Giant and Harpies and field two companies of Archers (Bull Orc and Goblin), but when you get right down to the I-wanna-knock-headz game, the little guys just don't pack the punch, not to mention not being able to use either SA.

I find Grand Reven to be almost a specialty list. That is to say I think they still are a viable countermeasure to certain situations such as when fighting Dwarves (where Toughness and therefore Warcry are useless) or when dealing with Crypt Legion (where Mob Mentality is a real bonus when making all those DIS checks to charge).

But let's face it... Tomukh Hunters are 7 points more, have one more point of MAV and two attacks. Tomukh fighters are only 3 points more and get 2 more points MAV. Tomukh Archers.. well... there's Tomukh Archers. What more could a body want?! Also there's the fact that Tomukh list can have multiple Gaaguks, still gets access to the Hunting Beast, Braug, Gurm, Yagun, Ombur and soforth, and of course they still can have Dantral, who is a Tactician.

[Qwyksilver]

On the other hand, I love playing the Grand Reven list. You would be surprised how effective it can be. It doesn't pack the brute strength of a Tomukh list, but I prefer the flexibility of the Grand Reven and now play it almost exclusively.

I honestly no longer miss Warcry and Enrage. Okay I miss Innate:Warcry, but only on my Archer troop, since the leader there is usually just hanging around for protection.

I can't field as many Bull Orcs as I can with a Tomukh list, but I can still field them. The big one, the Archers, has the same limit for either sublist.

I felt the same way when the Faction book came out. I thought the default special abilities sucked and I would never use them. Then I played it a bit and found Mob Mentality is very helpful, and Ridgerunner has been more useful than I thought, since we use a wide variety of terrain when we play, and not getting bogged down by Rough Terrain is rather helpful.

[spiritual_exorcist]

Nothing quite like taking Neek and loading him up with his maximum troop size.

Neek-54
9 Bull Orc Fighters- 198
6 Lesser Warriors-108
6 Lesser Spearmen-126
=486

Makes for an intimidating troop in 750 and 1000 point games...heck, tweek it a bit to get 2-4 Bull Orc Archers into the lineup and you could play it as a viable single troop 500 point force.

[Qwyksilver]

Or save 120 points and load up on Goblin Warriors

[Shadowhunter]

On the other hand, I love playing the Grand Reven list.

I just got the Reven book (really irritated that they changed the default SAs) and some models to make a viable army as a loaner and to sometimes use when the stunties need a break. I have to say that I never realized how expensive everyone elses stuff is untill I tried building a Reven list. I guess it really comes down to currently that the Reven have a few different hard adept fighters while the Dwarves only have two so you have more expensive good stuff.

Anyway please tell from your experience what works and what doesn't in a Grand Reven list as I'm not currently interested in the sub-lists. For reference the current Reven models I have are; Varaug, Kiakara, Narg, Kak'Urgh, Dantral, Khag, Gakalath, I think I might have Neek, A DHL half-orc I can use as an alt for a Capt or Sgt, Ombur, Lunk, Skralla, 6x Bull Orc Hunters, 6x Bull Orc Archers, 3x Bull Orc Berzerkers, 6x Lesser Orc Warriors, 6x Lesser Orc Spearbearers, 4x Goblin Skeeters, 1x Harpy, 3x Braug (one of which I could use for Yagun Oog), and 2x Trolls. I'd like to get at least six Bull Orc Fighters, three more Bull Orc Zerkers, and the Hill Giant. I'm not interested in getting any Beastmen though.

[Qwyksilver]

I posted a few of my staple troops I use for Grand Reven lists a few posts back. The Kakurgh troop in particular is almost always fielded, and seldom fails to be effective.

I have become a big fan of Braug, he rarely disappoints.

As much as I have mocked the Woodcutters in the past for being useless, I think they can have a use in a Grand Reven list. They remain Grunts, which means they gain SA: Mob. They are not as good as the Bull Orc Warriors, but they are better than Lesser Orcs. With the ability to be part of a Mob, a few won't hurt. The little extra MAV helps too over the Lesser Orcs.

What points are you looking to play? Do you have any particular armies that you face regularly that should be considered? Do you want a gimmick based build or a generalist build?

[Shadowhunter]

I posted a few of my staple troops I use for Grand Reven lists a few posts back. The Kakurgh troop in particular is almost always fielded, and seldom fails to be effective.

Yes I saw those troops and have played around with them in lists but a couple of troops does not make an army that why I asked for more info

I have become a big fan of Braug, he rarely disappoints.

As much as I have mocked the Woodcutters in the past for being useless, I think they can have a use in a Grand Reven list. They remain Grunts, which means they gain SA: Mob. They are not as good as the Bull Orc Warriors, but they are better than Lesser Orcs. With the ability to be part of a Mob, a few won't hurt. The little extra MAV helps too over the Lesser Orcs.

What points are you looking to play? Do you have any particular armies that you face regularly that should be considered? Do you want a gimmick based build or a generalist build?

In the game I played with my Reven I also like Braug. As for points value it will usally be 1000 to 1500, we seldom play 750 unless it's two 750s vs one 1500. The armies being played is an expanding list as we corrupt... I mean recruit more people away from those other games. Currently we have players that play Dwarven, Elven, Reven, Crusaders, Necropilos, Nefsokar, Razig, and Reptus so I usually build an all comers list even on those rare occasions I know who I'll be fighting against. On one occasion with my dwarves I had to fight Nefsokar, Reptus, and Razig all on the some board at the same time with Eleven and Crusader allies.

[stubby]

I don’t understand why people like Mob that much. Other than taking Neek to max out on your adepts I don’t see the point of this. The more troops you have the more activations you have. I just don’t see the advantage of mob. And taking Narg at 34 pts is a steal. 12 points more than a regular bull orc but you get an extra damage track and another activation. Not to mention the option to take another solitaire. Totally worth the extra points. Why Mob when you can Narg?

I want to try a Grand Reven but I just can’t get over the Tomukh lists superiority

[Qwyksilver]

I am presuming you mean Kharg at 34 points, not Narg.

When you face a lot of models with Horrid and Empowered, Mob Mentality becomes very effective, since you can bring in 5 models and always make the Discipline checks (and that's for a Dis 4).

Bigger troop sizes mean more models acting in concert, and reduces the number of Defensive Strikes. If I have to send in 2-3 small troops to take down a big guy, that's 3 turns worth of Defensive Strikes I have to also survive, and with less support bonuses, I may not be as effective. If I just send in one big troop, it's a single round. I'll likely tear it down but lose less models in the process.

Smaller troops can more readily be swallowed up in a big melee scrum. I can surround and maul 6 troops with my 12+ very easily. The reverse is not as possible.

It's also a difference in play styles. Larger mob troops can give you a lot more flexibility with model types and support options as well, all within a single troop, which allows for Synergy. Each unto their own. I like the Tomukh list, but I prefer the flexibility Grand Reven provides me.

Even when I have been at 2:1 Initiative card disadvantages, I have rarely actually felt that disadvantage. Especially in the early rounds where positioning is key and you want to go later to set up after your opponent, having a card disadvantage helps. It's also easier to eliminate an entire troop in a single shot when it's 5 models than when it's 12+ and that quickly erodes that card advantage your opponent seems to have.

I try to have a troop for every 250 points I field as a general guideline. Sometimes I will have more, sometimes, less, but that's usually an average for me.

[vutpakdi]

I want to try a Grand Reven but I just can’t get over the Tomukh lists superiority

I've been thinking about coming up with a Grand Reven build so that I have some useful faction abilities when facing Dwarves. That and the being able to charge scary things is attractive. One of my current builds has a few berserkers, and they're usually pretty good for charging scary things, but I did have a berserker fail to charge Moandain in my last game.

Still, it's kinda hard to give up that Warcry unless you're facing dwarves.

Ron

[Shadowhunter]

How's this for a 750 point army?

Reven Company - Bone Breakers

Dantral (11#, 363 Pts)
1 Dantral
Bloodlust/4; Mob / 2; Ridge Runner; Tactician; Tough/3
4 Bull Orc Fighters
Bloodlust/2; Tough/1
6 Bull Orc Archers
Tough/1; Volley

Kharg (12#, 250 Pts)
1 Kharg Blacknail, Bull Orc Boghul
Bloodlust/2; Mob / 2; Ridge Runner; Tough/2
5 Lesser Orc Warriors
Deflect; Mob; Ridge Runner; Tough/1
6 Lesser Orc Spearbearers
Mob; Reach; Ridge Runner; Tough/1

Troop (1#, 68 Pts)
1 Braug, Ogre
Reach; Tough/2

Troop (1#, 68 Pts)
1 Braug, Ogre
Reach; Tough/2

Total Company Cost: 749

[Qwyksilver]

There are a few tweaks I would suggest.

Unless you want Dantral for the extra Initiative Card from Tactician, I would swap him for Narg, and lose a Spearbearer from troop 2. That will cover the difference between Narg and Dantral and give you an extra 9 points to play with. Dantral's low DV always makes me a little nervous. I'd rather Narg's extra attack at +3 and +2 DV instead of a single Spearbearer.

Some other thoughts..
This is going to be primarily a melee based build. If so, you're going to want more Bull Orc Warriors in the mix. In a 750 point match, 4-5 Archer should be more than sufficient. You don't really need all six. I seldom field more than 5 even in 1000 point lists. Just make sure you pick your targets properly. Don't spend useless shots on high DV models. Pick off the weak ones.

I would consider something like either of these:
Narg - 104
Ombur - 56
w/ Bandage x3, Bless, Divine Favor - 45
Bull Orc Warrior x5 - 110
Bull Orc Archer x4 - 120

Kharg - 34
Lesser Orc Warrior x6 - 108
Lesser Orc Spear x 5 - 105

Braug - 68

750 points exactly.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Dantral - 95
w/ Divine Favor - 10
Ombur - 56
w/ Bandage x4 - 40
Bull Orc Warrior x5 - 110
Bull Orc Archer x4 - 120

Kharg - 34
Lesser Orc Warrior x6 - 108
Lesser Orc Spear x5 - 105

Braug - 68

746 points.

You'll trade off the extra melee punch of the extra Braug, but Ombur will allow you to keep the other one, or Narg in the fight longer, at peak shape instead. Also, he can support your Archer with either a Bless, or a Bandage to avoid a Tough check. Don't worr about Kharg being over his 10 troop limit,

[Shadowhunter]

The thought I had with my list was to split the archers up into two groups of three with two bulls as escorts. The ogres are to bash stuff along with the lesser orcs. I admit the lesser orcs will probably have a hard time getting the job done all by them selves and the ogres will have to be careful not to become pin cushions before making contact.

Here's a question, which is more important for a Grand Reven list at 1000 points plus, a Totem, a Mage, or a Shaman?

[stubby]

I am still totally unconvinced on the grand reven list and think a Tomukh list is way better. This list will give you 3 innate: Warcries and allow you to enrage some hunters

Dantral
1 Dantral w/ divine favour
2 Bull Orc Fighters
4 Bull Orc Archers

Kharg
1 Kharg Blacknail, Bull Orc Boghul
3 Bull Orc Fighters
3 Bull Orc Hunters

Kharg
1 Kharg Blacknail, Bull Orc Boghul
3 Bull Orc Fighters
2 Bull Orc Hunters

Troop
1 Braug, Ogre

Troop
1 Braug, Ogre


Total Company Cost: 745

[Qwyksilver]

Here's a question, which is more important for a Grand Reven list at 1000 points plus, a Totem, a Mage, or a Shaman?

I usually bring Lunk with Life Transfers so I have a combination of Offensive magic and Healing.

I am still totally unconvinced on the grand reven list and think a Tomukh list is way better. This list will give you 3 innate: Warcries and allow you to enrage some hunters

In general principle, I think both the Grand Reven and Tomukh lists have their strengths and weaknesses. Again, it's up to the individual player to decide what works best with your play style. With Shadowhunter's basic list, I have to agree with you though. He's not really taking enough diverse troops to warrant going with Grand Reven vs. Tomukh. I would swap out the Lesser Orcs in his Kharg troop for more Bull Orcs, probably Hunters and Warriors mixed.

For a Grand Reven, you want to take advantage of the extra Ranged models by bringing a couple Skeeters. Using the Goblin Beastriders. Traeg, Skralla or Lunk as Elites, etc. With a Grand Reven list, the majority of your models should be non-Tomukh. Usually a single troop of Tomukh as a hammer works, but if you;re going to use mostly Tomukh models, just go with a Tomukh list. The greatest strength of the Grand Reven is it's flexibility of design. If you want straight forward, smash mouth Warlord, the Tomukh excel at this. If you want to be able to be very flexible on the table irregardless of your opponent and terrain, Grand Reven grants you that. Once again. YMMV. Pick the army that works for you.